Comments on: Guiris and the nationalist cause http://daniel1969.wordpress.com/2006/11/03/guiris-and-the-nationalist-cause/ A world view from Spain Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:22:54 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: catalonia blog http://daniel1969.wordpress.com/2006/11/03/guiris-and-the-nationalist-cause/#comment-1080 catalonia blog Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:22:54 +0000 http://daniel1969.wordpress.com/2006/11/03/guiris-and-the-nationalist-cause/#comment-1080 A most excellent post, seems to sum up my opinions to the letter. A most excellent post, seems to sum up my opinions to the letter.

]]> By: mark http://daniel1969.wordpress.com/2006/11/03/guiris-and-the-nationalist-cause/#comment-1073 mark Fri, 07 Nov 2008 10:32:19 +0000 http://daniel1969.wordpress.com/2006/11/03/guiris-and-the-nationalist-cause/#comment-1073 wow, just stumbled by.... and must say this is the best and most consice summary i have ever read on this topic....and i agree 100% with you... well done... wow, just stumbled by…. and must say this is the best and most consice summary i have ever read on this topic….and i agree 100% with you… well done…

]]> By: Marina http://daniel1969.wordpress.com/2006/11/03/guiris-and-the-nationalist-cause/#comment-1069 Marina Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:29:00 +0000 http://daniel1969.wordpress.com/2006/11/03/guiris-and-the-nationalist-cause/#comment-1069 Yet another example of political debate in España... Anyway, the fact is that we don't all believe the fabrications of the Generalitat, either because we are well-read and know about History ( the real one not the fabricated one) or because we look outside in order to understand the inside. What I find increasingly sinister is that the foreign residents are (unknowingly) assimilating the same fabricated tripe and, without wishing to be offensive, have had little, if any at all, previous knowledge of the History of Spain before moving here. I shudder when I read words like "colonialism", Tom , I would be very happy to enlighten you about this newly coined term in the Catalan nationalist dictionary; a dictionary that was first "published" in the late XIX Century when the seeds of European nationalism were being planted, an irrational and selfish zeitgeist that gave us pearls like Hitler, Mussolini,Franco, Sabino Arana, Prat de la Riba and new wannabe nations like the Basque Country and Catalonia. By the way, the much mentioned 1714 refers to the Spanish War of Succesion (Borbons against Austrias) but the Generalitat has been shiftily promoting a slight change in the spelling of the word which sounds now more like Secession and topped its brand new story with the insertion of a fairy tale interpretation of said war in all History books in Catalonia and even on their website and if they do this it's because they can, the laisser-fair attitude ( if not sheer ignorance) of everyone in this sorry place will go down in History as the biggest brainwashing ever. Now, don't you think that investing our money in giving us "real" education, great health care, a decent home to live, etc. should be what is all about? Not in Catalonia, I'm afraid, here it's about what it's always been, about the descendants of the Catalan bourgeoisie stealing even more money from the mass; if now they are taking in excess of 15% on commissions for granting contracts to willing contractors, imagine what they will pocket when they have to give no explanations to central government. Did you now that Pujol's wife had ( not sure if still does) a business that sold palm-trees? Do you know where all the thousands of palm-trees that were planted in Barcelona as part of the Olympic Games regeneration project with the money from all Spanish tax-payers came from? Bingo! From Mrs Ferrusola company.Would this be allowed say, in the UK? Once again, I'd be very happy to share my impartial bag of knowledge with anyone. I do suggest though if anyone out there is interested in learning about Spain, get some books by foreign authors and reputed Historians, much of the stuff on sale in catlonia nowadays is pure tripe. Yet another example of political debate in España… Anyway, the fact is that we don’t all believe the fabrications of the Generalitat, either because we are well-read and know about History ( the real one not the fabricated one) or because we look outside in order to understand the inside. What I find increasingly sinister is that the foreign residents are (unknowingly) assimilating the same fabricated tripe and, without wishing to be offensive, have had little, if any at all, previous knowledge of the History of Spain before moving here. I shudder when I read words like “colonialism”, Tom , I would be very happy to enlighten you about this newly coined term in the Catalan nationalist dictionary; a dictionary that was first “published” in the late XIX Century when the seeds of European nationalism were being planted, an irrational and selfish zeitgeist that gave us pearls like Hitler, Mussolini,Franco, Sabino Arana, Prat de la Riba and new wannabe nations like the Basque Country and Catalonia. By the way, the much mentioned 1714 refers to the Spanish War of Succesion (Borbons against Austrias) but the Generalitat has been shiftily promoting a slight change in the spelling of the word which sounds now more like Secession and topped its brand new story with the insertion of a fairy tale interpretation of said war in all History books in Catalonia and even on their website and if they do this it’s because they can, the laisser-fair attitude ( if not sheer ignorance) of everyone in this sorry place will go down in History as the biggest brainwashing ever. Now, don’t you think that investing our money in giving us “real” education, great health care, a decent home to live, etc. should be what is all about? Not in Catalonia, I’m afraid, here it’s about what it’s always been, about the descendants of the Catalan bourgeoisie stealing even more money from the mass; if now they are taking in excess of 15% on commissions for granting contracts to willing contractors, imagine what they will pocket when they have to give no explanations to central government. Did you now that Pujol’s wife had ( not sure if still does) a business that sold palm-trees? Do you know where all the thousands of palm-trees that were planted in Barcelona as part of the Olympic Games regeneration project with the money from all Spanish tax-payers came from? Bingo! From Mrs Ferrusola company.Would this be allowed say, in the UK? Once again, I’d be very happy to share my impartial bag of knowledge with anyone. I do suggest though if anyone out there is interested in learning about Spain, get some books by foreign authors and reputed Historians, much of the stuff on sale in catlonia nowadays is pure tripe.

]]> By: David http://daniel1969.wordpress.com/2006/11/03/guiris-and-the-nationalist-cause/#comment-1066 David Sat, 02 Feb 2008 19:20:27 +0000 http://daniel1969.wordpress.com/2006/11/03/guiris-and-the-nationalist-cause/#comment-1066 > I don’t think nationalism and social progress are impossible to link together, just Catalan nationalism and social progress. Aaaaaaaaaah! Ja et conec, herbeta, que et dius marduix. Mira, idiota, això ho porteu dient els comunistes espanyols mal reciclats des de fot 70 anys. Esteu més passats que un disc de l'Antonio Machin. Apa, ves a cagar a la via i espera fins que sentis un xiulet. > I don’t think nationalism and social progress are impossible to link together, just Catalan nationalism and social progress.

Aaaaaaaaaah! Ja et conec, herbeta, que et dius marduix.

Mira, idiota, això ho porteu dient els comunistes espanyols mal reciclats des de fot 70 anys. Esteu més passats que un disc de l’Antonio Machin.

Apa, ves a cagar a la via i espera fins que sentis un xiulet.

]]> By: David http://daniel1969.wordpress.com/2006/11/03/guiris-and-the-nationalist-cause/#comment-1065 David Sat, 02 Feb 2008 19:11:03 +0000 http://daniel1969.wordpress.com/2006/11/03/guiris-and-the-nationalist-cause/#comment-1065 Then why the Catalan patriot [not nationalist, please, learn to translate before translating] government has received lots and lots of rekons from European Comission or from UNESCO or from many other international instances for our school methods or EU founds management? By the way, if we Catalan patriots are as bad and ugly as you paint us, then why we have a President born in Andalusia or the recent Ramon Llull award is a girl born in Nador, Morocco? Are you sure 7,500,000 Catalans are wrong and blind and you are the only one who has the shinning Truth? Oh! And I myself am a descent of immigrants, too. The only true point in all your long loathing article is the final point. Make a favour to the world and set a final point to your life. Then why the Catalan patriot [not nationalist, please, learn to translate before translating] government has received lots and lots of rekons from European Comission or from UNESCO or from many other international instances for our school methods or EU founds management?

By the way, if we Catalan patriots are as bad and ugly as you paint us, then why we have a President born in Andalusia or the recent Ramon Llull award is a girl born in Nador, Morocco? Are you sure 7,500,000 Catalans are wrong and blind and you are the only one who has the shinning Truth? Oh! And I myself am a descent of immigrants, too.

The only true point in all your long loathing article is the final point. Make a favour to the world and set a final point to your life.

]]> By: marc http://daniel1969.wordpress.com/2006/11/03/guiris-and-the-nationalist-cause/#comment-561 marc Wed, 30 May 2007 22:44:13 +0000 http://daniel1969.wordpress.com/2006/11/03/guiris-and-the-nationalist-cause/#comment-561 i get the idea...the catalans are nationalists,huh? and the spaniards?Franco,primo de rivera ,aznar? trying to impose?since 1714,there is nothing we can impose,mate! fiscal privileges? stop having too many pints,son! remember CERVANTES..(wherever you go ,do what it is done there)? catalan nationalism is a defensive one, not aggressive like the spanish one... and by the way,before lightly judging the history of an oppressed nation ..get the facts right, mate Another catalan "nationalist" moron! i get the idea…the catalans are nationalists,huh?
and the spaniards?Franco,primo de rivera ,aznar?
trying to impose?since 1714,there is nothing we can impose,mate!
fiscal privileges?
stop having too many pints,son!
remember CERVANTES..(wherever you go ,do what it is done there)?
catalan nationalism is a defensive one, not aggressive like the spanish one…
and by the way,before lightly judging the history of an oppressed nation ..get the facts right, mate
Another catalan “nationalist” moron!

]]> By: Nick http://daniel1969.wordpress.com/2006/11/03/guiris-and-the-nationalist-cause/#comment-40 Nick Wed, 08 Nov 2006 16:16:01 +0000 http://daniel1969.wordpress.com/2006/11/03/guiris-and-the-nationalist-cause/#comment-40 I think the reason why this was the second lowest turnout ever at the Catalan elections is because Catalans feel that politicians increasingly don't talk for them. The last tripartite was dominated by squabbling over issues of nationalism in the same way that Blair and Bush focus on Iraq to avoid dealing with basic social and economic issues in their own countries. If they paid more attention to more pressing public issues such as the spiralling cost of property and creaking health service, then maybe people would turn out to vote in greater numbers. As regards Catalan nationalism in general, I can see the arguments in favour of it but I really don't see it as the most important issue facing Catalunya. The region already has a huge degree of independence from the Spanish state and is increasingly independent in all but name virtually. I think the reason why this was the second lowest turnout ever at the Catalan elections is because Catalans feel that politicians increasingly don’t talk for them. The last tripartite was dominated by squabbling over issues of nationalism in the same way that Blair and Bush focus on Iraq to avoid dealing with basic social and economic issues in their own countries. If they paid more attention to more pressing public issues such as the spiralling cost of property and creaking health service, then maybe people would turn out to vote in greater numbers.

As regards Catalan nationalism in general, I can see the arguments in favour of it but I really don’t see it as the most important issue facing Catalunya. The region already has a huge degree of independence from the Spanish state and is increasingly independent in all but name virtually.

]]> By: Daniel http://daniel1969.wordpress.com/2006/11/03/guiris-and-the-nationalist-cause/#comment-39 Daniel Sat, 04 Nov 2006 07:26:52 +0000 http://daniel1969.wordpress.com/2006/11/03/guiris-and-the-nationalist-cause/#comment-39 Tom, I don't think nationalism and social progress are impossible to link together, just Catalan nationalism and social progress. On an national level Catalan nationalism is not interested in income redistribution (I once went to a talk by Josep Huguet (ERC) who said any money spent in Spain was simply 'tapant forats' and that money could be far more productive if spent in Catalonia rather than Asturias, regardless of the social need in the 2 regions - is this social progress?); within Catalonia, the concerns of nationalists are helping botiguers, not paying peatges, promoting the language and culture etc, none of which contribute anything to social justice. The difference between ex-colonies and Catalonia is the issue of oppression and to compare the two cases is not particularly constructive, and you yourself mention civil rights, which aren't under threat in Catalonia. Re the elections, I was referring to the PSC's loss of votes (PSC itself is blaming this on turning off its electorate with nationalist messages whilst in power) and the rise of the anti-nationalist Ciutadans and the relatively non-nationalist ICV. If you throw in abstention caused, to a certain extent, by people being unable to connect to a nationalist-dominated political system, then you've got a hell of a lot of people who don't associate themselves with nationalism. A political elite that is so detached from the people it supposedly represents is getting something wrong. Look at the media/political reaction to lay-offs at Seat (working-class Spanish speakers) and potential job losses at RTVE in Sant Cugat and the closure of Radio4 (which had abysmal audience figures but was staffed by defenders of Catalan culture) and you'll see what I mean. Tom,

I don’t think nationalism and social progress are impossible to link together, just Catalan nationalism and social progress. On an national level Catalan nationalism is not interested in income redistribution (I once went to a talk by Josep Huguet (ERC) who said any money spent in Spain was simply ‘tapant forats’ and that money could be far more productive if spent in Catalonia rather than Asturias, regardless of the social need in the 2 regions – is this social progress?); within Catalonia, the concerns of nationalists are helping botiguers, not paying peatges, promoting the language and culture etc, none of which contribute anything to social justice.

The difference between ex-colonies and Catalonia is the issue of oppression and to compare the two cases is not particularly constructive, and you yourself mention civil rights, which aren’t under threat in Catalonia.

Re the elections, I was referring to the PSC’s loss of votes (PSC itself is blaming this on turning off its electorate with nationalist messages whilst in power) and the rise of the anti-nationalist Ciutadans and the relatively non-nationalist ICV. If you throw in abstention caused, to a certain extent, by people being unable to connect to a nationalist-dominated political system, then you’ve got a hell of a lot of people who don’t associate themselves with nationalism.

A political elite that is so detached from the people it supposedly represents is getting something wrong. Look at the media/political reaction to lay-offs at Seat (working-class Spanish speakers) and potential job losses at RTVE in Sant Cugat and the closure of Radio4 (which had abysmal audience figures but was staffed by defenders of Catalan culture) and you’ll see what I mean.

]]> By: Tom http://daniel1969.wordpress.com/2006/11/03/guiris-and-the-nationalist-cause/#comment-38 Tom Sat, 04 Nov 2006 00:25:32 +0000 http://daniel1969.wordpress.com/2006/11/03/guiris-and-the-nationalist-cause/#comment-38 While I'm no nationalist - I despise the racial references made by Catalan and Spanish nationalists on the lunatic fringe - I must disagree with a couple of points. I don't accept that all 'guiris' (I'd not call myself that, personally) find it impossible to link nationalism (or rather 'independentism') and social progress. Many people who've grown up in countries which have suffered colonialism quite accurately connect a sense of national liberation with the civil rights which accompany it. This is not to say that liberation confers said rights, more that some non-Catalans could feel a deep resonance in what they hear from Catalan nationalists, however distorted their version of events might be. I also find it difficult to believe that you see the recent election as evidence that Catalans themselves are tired with nationalism. The largest net loser in the election was the PSC and many commentators have linked their poorer showing at the polls this year with Artur Mas's relentless references to his origins and alleged status as a puppet of Madrid. While I’m no nationalist – I despise the racial references made by Catalan and Spanish nationalists on the lunatic fringe – I must disagree with a couple of points. I don’t accept that all ‘guiris’ (I’d not call myself that, personally) find it impossible to link nationalism (or rather ‘independentism’) and social progress. Many people who’ve grown up in countries which have suffered colonialism quite accurately connect a sense of national liberation with the civil rights which accompany it. This is not to say that liberation confers said rights, more that some non-Catalans could feel a deep resonance in what they hear from Catalan nationalists, however distorted their version of events might be.

I also find it difficult to believe that you see the recent election as evidence that Catalans themselves are tired with nationalism. The largest net loser in the election was the PSC and many commentators have linked their poorer showing at the polls this year with Artur Mas’s relentless references to his origins and alleged status as a puppet of Madrid.

]]> By: Daniel http://daniel1969.wordpress.com/2006/11/03/guiris-and-the-nationalist-cause/#comment-37 Daniel Fri, 03 Nov 2006 13:24:14 +0000 http://daniel1969.wordpress.com/2006/11/03/guiris-and-the-nationalist-cause/#comment-37 No problem, John. Feel free to take whatever you want from the site, as long as Planet Churro gets a mention ;-) No problem, John. Feel free to take whatever you want from the site, as long as Planet Churro gets a mention ;-)

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